During the 4th Mumble meeting we discussed many practical points, such as a name for our initiative, translations and logistics. We also started to talk about what sort of activities participants of our group would like to organize in Tunis.
4th Meeting: Occupy the WSF
Thursday 3rd January 2013, 19:00 GMT, 20:00 CET, 21:00 IST
Occupytalk.org > Assemblies & roundtables > OPEN SPACE
Signs in the text chat during our mumble meetings:
- WWWW or +1 = agree
- MMMMM or -1 = disagree
- ****turn**** = ask for turn
- +++++ = direct response
- TTTTT = technical point
Notes from previous meetings:
- 30 November 2012: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF
- 7 December 2012: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF2
- 18 December 2012 : http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF3
- 3 January 2013 : http://titanpad.com/agora99firenzeWSF4
Link with all pads: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSFpads
We use this list email@example.com
*please every body reading these minutes and interested in this project join in the above email list*
- Facilitation: Sureshf
- Turns: Daniel
- Minutes: Mariangela, John and all
Participants to the meeting
- Vica, Occupy London
- Daniel, Barcelona 15m
- Mariangela, 15M Madrid, Spain
- Pablo, Madrid
- John, Occupy London
- Les, London
- Sureshf, Vancouver
- Ali, Tunis
- Jeza, Barcelona
- Tina, Switzerland
- Jasper, the Netherlands
- Beatnic, Paris, France
- Pierre, France
- Marwen, Canada/Tunisia
- Orsan, Amsterdam
- Fausto, Italy/Tunisia
- Piran, Germany/Iran
- Ounaies, France/Tunisia
- Purpose of our initiative
- Name of the network organizing our participation in Tunis
- Finance and Infrastructures
- Activities in Tunis:
- Next meeting
- Our name (part two, also see point 2)
- Checking out
1. Purpose of our initiative
Can we come to an agreement on a very short statement indicating the purpose of our initiative and what would be the main elements of such a statement?
Ma: proposes to use the call as a base
Je: proposes to have some key words in it
Da: to put that our presence is a constructive presence and thatthe aim is to create a space to bridge with movements which are not always at the WSF
Jo: put in the text that a bridge has to be made between movements in arab world and occupy
Ja: we dont represent anybody but ourselves and this has to be clear
Be: principal of horizontality, no representation, autonomy is one of the principle
Jo: we just say who we are, people involved in different networks
Ja: we are a group of people, not a platform of movements. A quote from a recent Zapatista statement: “We will try to construct the necessary bridges towards the social movements that have arisen and will arise, not to lead them or take their place, but rather to learn from them, from their history, from their journeys and fates.¨ It`s a great inpiration
Use this as a base:
From 26-30 March 2013 the World Social Forum (WSF) will take place in Tunis. The WSF is a global meeting bringing together civil society organisations, social movements and activists to discuss our struggles to build another world.In the recent meetings of Agora99 and Firenze10+10 a diverse group of individuals, active in 15M, Occupy and other horizontal grassroots social movements and networks around the globe, started to talk about the possibilities to participate in the WSF in Tunisia, recognizing this can be the right time and place to come together and share our experiences and practices.
To discuss and organize our participation in the WSF, we started an open communication process through regular online meetings and an inclusive mailing list which is a space open to a variety of initiatives, gathering particularly participants from the various movements mostly emerged throughout the year 2011 (Tunisia, Egypt, Senegal, Morocco, Spain Chile, Usa, Quebec, etc).
During previous meetings many proposals have been suggested: a series of assemblies within the official program of the WSF, an open space about the future of our struggles, communication skill-sharing workshops, a camp and caravan in Tunis, and more. In order to make our these activities as open and inclusive as possible, we also discussed the options of a solidarity fund for travelling and interactive live connection with our activities in Tunisia.
The coming months we will continue to develop these plans. We intend to always keep our process open to new people, new proposals, constructive criticism and fresh fuel to the fire from all the corners of the world. Therefore we warmly welcome your participation in our online meetings and/or mailing list.
A group is going to prepare a proposal and send it to the list
Volonteer to work on this: Jasper, Jeza, John, Sureshf
and they will send it to the list
2. Name of the network organizing our participation in Tunis
We’ve got to decide about the name of our group. We had a funny “feeling…feelings” and this is the result
Be: we need an international name. The best is OccupyWSF
Jo: WSFKaramaFSM is the best
Ja: may be we could choose a name which could continue after the WSF. Karama is dignity and is also the official word of the forum
P.: two observations : 1/ initially the idea in this group as i understood it, was to participate in WSF “from occupy /15M movement perspective”, not pretending to “represent”, and there can be several such intiatives co existing not necesarily unified . 2/. WSF is a lasting process and so a website named X-WSF, whatever X is, could last also after the 2013 WSFevent
Su: WSF is a massive event. Our activity is special. Occupy represent something which is easy to understand and chaches the unity
Ma: lets move on with the discussion. An arabic world is nice but at the moment OccupyWSF has a very good message
Pau: Karama is dignity and is a slogan of arabic people. this world is very important. Suggest to remove the WSF from the name
Vica: its difficult to use word which are not confortable with. Maybe words like square in arabic
Be: we could use the 2 words according the audience to adress it
John: I wouldnt like occupy and WSF in the same name
Ja: square and/or people in the name
Su: do we need WSF in the name?
Pie: points out that the original idea discussed in florence in face to face discussion was to start “one” intiative of participation in wsf by a specific group of people with a trajectory of participation in occupy/15M , without pretending to represent occupy/15M , and with open possibility of “other” similar intiaitives from other likeminded groups. Now by adressing a website name issue, it seems the inititative has grown bigger . Is everyone clear about this?
The name of the group thrown in by daniel when registering is here : “Inclusion in Forums Through Assembleary Processes” http://www.fsm2013.org/fr/organisation_info/2472
Vica: too ambitious to carry on after the WSF. Lets talk about the WSF. We could redirect the website later if ..
Jeza: we shoudnt take the names if we dont want to represent the movements
D: nobody has a problem in using occupy. the aim of this group is to do something in the WSF.
Su: agreed with Vica. We want to work together on other things but do we want to decide it now or later?
Ja: some of us here were also in Firenze 10+10 in italy (sort of European Social Forum) but everything was last minute and with limited perspective on continuity after the event, so I would go for a more lasting process, for example relating to other social forums in the future as well
Be: we have a lot of points so please move on
Ma: proposes SquaresAssemblies
Vica: square in arabic Seha
We move to the third point and leave this for later (see below)
3. Finance and Infrastructures
Be: brings the Paris ideas for methodology work: 1. for mobilizing people; 2. agriculture and selfmanagement; 3. finance
Da: we could not have a mixture between our translators or the pofessional ones. We could use volonteers or pay for the translation
There will a problem of sound system as well. We have to decide if you use Babels for translation or Nomad for the sound system
Ma: problem of accomodation. Will be there a camp? Where? What location?
Ja: paying people for translation is silly. We are volonteer here and we could translate
Da: we need people translating: arabic to english and the contrary. The registration is a small amount. What do we need for the camping and for the translation?
Jo: logical thing to do is to organize a camp. So we have an openspace. There will be many people coming from Tunisia. The camp has to be free for people. How many people will be there? A thousand. We dont have to buy anything and use what we have there. People could help to provide tents and we dont have to pay for them
Jo: its not realistic to think that everything is free. food and accomodation for the volunteer translators is important.
Vica: what are we actually going to do there? It will be amazing having a camp. We have to make a big effort to connect with people in Tunis. lets start with having a donate botton in the web site
Su: what ever we do we have logistic problem and we cannot do it without people there. We have to start a logistig group and a found raising group from this meeting
Or: crowdsourcing is fundamental. Babels is a very horizontal network and it is important to contact them as well as Nomad. Idea for tents:
Da: we have to decide now if we use Babel or not
Paul: proposes a group starting right now
John: we have to see what’s the gap is between what we can raise financially and what we need for our presence
Paul: suggest to have a look in this pad http://pad.tn/p/penserLeForumEn
Vica: Although I would be interested in organising a camp. I think it is very difficult to organise these things from afar
Orsan: we need a process to involve the local groups
Three groups are proposed:
Infrastructure group: Orsan,Tina, Rami, Jeza, Marouane, nori and Paul.
Finance: Sureshf, Daniel, John
Comunication: Vica, Orsan, Dani, Mariangela (working nationally and internationally) + Jasper, Jeza, John, Sureshf (for the statement)
We decided to use the mailing list we have, without making new ones
4. Activities in Tunis:
Assemblies, caravan, migrants march, assemblies, open spaces, experience exchange workshop on citizen media
About activities (assemblies, caravan and others): http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSFactivities
Jasper: proposes a newspaper during the forum, trying to get people from the Occupied Times, OWS Journal, etc involved, see: http://titanpad.com/globaloccupiednewspaperWSF
Beatnyk: We would propose a workshop in the open space, direct action, people emancipation activity, improve methodology, move citizen to citizen
Jeza: Idea is to create synergies so peolpe can work together. It had quite agood result
Paul: How to improve links between different groups internationally. What happen last Spring in Quebec with the studen strike
Mariangela: following the idea of the free assembly registered by Dani in the wsf . We worked on the content of this assembly. We’re talking about concrete experiences. How people in Greece have stopped private waters. Talk about the commmon. How can we self manage all of this? Empowerment of social struggle facing repressions. People face big fines. More rubber bullets. Different kind of repression goin all over de world. How are people to face this?We had a good experience last May. Emjoy group was holding one square and had assembly. This kind of assembly with content is important there.
From working group of politica internacional 15M madrid we propose these contents:
First assembly: Concrete expieriences and alternatives built in different spaces and assemblies in 15M/Occupy/Social horizontal and assembleary movements
Second assembly: retaking commons (earth, water, services, …..)
Third assembly: strategies of impowerment of social struggles facinh oppression and repression of the system
Marwen: State is v. strong. People are not taking their life. They are tasking taking thing to resist that. How people are resisting system and cooperatives and urban agriculture. It need to be about concrete struggle. We can take advantage of bein there. And we dont need to forget about art
Be: It is important to have worshop about legal support in the movements. In Paris we did suit the police, and now in Notre dame des Landes there is a big campagn to stop the airport ; they use law when they can. Even if court people can sometimes be “bought” by State, like politicians can be “bought” by multinationale, we still need to know the law and use it in our advantage in social movement
Paul: propose to talk about via22 proyect,
Student strike happened last Spring. In quebec we succededd in turning a sectoral issue (studen taxes )and making it a national issue that concerns everybody
Vica: not to replacate whats happening. We could create cross over spaces like in Spain. how to resist and practical staff on ways of organizing and resisting
Dani: it is important not to fix contents. Yes about the expiriences but not about commons.Lets not replicate whats in the forum
Third one about continuity sysngergies communications. Lets not make the commons the only thing we can talk about in the assembly
How to improves the social forum? how to make it more horizontals?
Su: how to improve the SF. An open space has the idea of no leader. Do we want to converge? Should we developing unity? Vote on a national or larger strike ?
I do appreciate the importance of sharing experience. But we need to take it a step further. And I know these discussions are also happening within the aegis of the social forum
Orsan: [...] Working on different issues and different groups. This we are going to do it within the program and try and link them in an open assemby and daily journal is a good idea
Jeza: We should focus a little bit on what we have. As member of debt audit group we do our stuff there. From this to be able to decide about what i want to speak about. Do not have to be there if i cannot speak there and learn something there. I would like to have not to much prepared. Do not fix too much things and let it flow. When I said it in the forum it was bet [..]
In Barcelona was very good with groups working together and collaborate
Pierre: one of original ideas in the group were to promote usage on different tools for remote collective communication in the movement, . this involves work before the forum to promote idea of “local wsf activities in spain 15M in USA Occupy etc it can be participating in the extension support team or creating a permanent hub of contact with occupy 15M groups wiht tunis groups
Develop local activities connected with assemblies in Tunis. It is important to make a systematic work on this -be really inclusive to distance tele participants thanks to inclusive use of techniques
Propose assemblies methodologies to some organization interested in exploring them
Using technologies to interact with different groups
Jasper: I agree it is important ot talk about the wsf itself. But I dont agree with using “Improving Social Forums” in the title but to make it more open and propose it as a collective evaluation of the WSF Tunis, including our own activities and the relations between one another.
I am also interested to see how we can do the skills sharing because this is the best way to make a critical point about the wsf and not complain about what other people do wrong.
My proposal to make a newsapaper goes in this sense
There are more similar ideas we can do there. There is an exibition about M15 in NYC. we could ask them to bring it to Tunis. Other examples include of course mumble workshops and livestreaming workshops. I am also interested in Tina’s proposal for the refugee caravan to Tunis.
Be: Careful on “open space” = capitalism new management, hidden hierarchy, self survey, competition.
Sharing experience = we must do it to resist cause the states do it to repress strikes (eg : recent kettlings in EU) ; multinational does it too (fiscal cheat, worker exploit, etc).
Paper is a good idea but requires lots of work & long time to be efficient ; so the goal should be to help people to launch their own citizen/indy medias moreover newspaper, and use movement’s communication way/methodologies (mumble, assemblies, etc).
Fausto: I would like to say to U that I believe more and more that there will be very few young Tunisian people at the WSF. This feeling comes from a lot infos we got from various parts. I don’t believe it will be possible to “change” the WSF. Its enough to see how the reacted to our SOS paper: very burcratically, in pure Moscow style 1938
the International Council is a unremovable world burocracy of 165 people. So an other thing; how many of you would be able to come to Tunis? from europe, the americas etc.?
Vi: we experience same stuff in Florence there is a difference between who organize and who participate. On SF i think we don’t need to be too ambitious, don’t make too big decisions or statements, let’s share/exchange what we’ve experienced before, on democracry & everything.
Ti: i want to give a little impression ; there’s an international coalition of migrans and no-papers. Connect different no border by doing a direct action crossing the borders illegally and the idea is going to Tunis to participate in the SF. In the next meeting we could discuss it better but the question is how we could support them a to pass the borders and come back.
Be: just before meeting, main languages proposed were english (international), spanish (one of the most active movement), french (quebec/france + arabic & african audience) ; may be arabic too.
We dicide to work on all this points in the list and in the pads we already have
5. Next meetings
next meetings Thursaday 17th January
19:00 GMT, 20:00 CET, 21:00 IST
Occupytalk.org > Assemblies & roundtables > OPEN SPACE
6. Our name (part two, also see point 2)
Proposals made earlier:
- SFI = Squares & Forums initiative
- Spirit of the square
We will decide on the name in the next 4 days. Jeza is opening the pad and sending the message to the list for the poll
7. Checking out
Dani is sending the minutes to the list
Meeting finishes at 23:39 Cet time
All other points go to the next meeting:
Website: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSFweb, Jasper saying that him with Ali is starting working on the website and invite people to join the group.
About languages that we speak and how to deal with the language issue, how to organize the translation for the time in Tunis and for the list: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSFlanguage Main languages proposed : english (international), spanish (one of the most active movement), french (quebec/france + arabic & african audience) ; may be arabic too.
How to involve other people, groups, movements? About extension: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSFextension