In the 3rd Mumble meeting we started with introducing ourselves and share information about what our local/national groups (might) do in relation to the World Social Forum in Tunis. The Tunisians present gave us useful impressions of the current state of the official WSF organizing process. We made some first steps in building our communication channels.
3rd Meeting: Occupy the WSF
Tuesday 18th of December 2012, 19:00 GMT, Ended at 23:30 GMT
Occupytalk.org > Assemblies & roundtables > OPEN SPACE
A recording of the meeting in mp3 format can be downloaded from here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kw6wmj60clp9g09
Signs in the text chat during our mumble meetings:
- WWWW or +1 = agree
- MMMMM or -1 = disagree
- ****turn**** = ask for turn
- +++++ = direct response
- TTTTT = need translations / technical point
Notes from previous meetings:
- 30 November 2012: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF
- 7 December 2012: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF2
Introduction on methodology of the meeting
Discussion about how do we do the translation : We use English with translation in French
Introduction about methodology (minutes and explanation of the protocol and signs we use in the chat
Division of tasks:
- facilitation: Jasper
- stack taking: Ternura and Mrs
- minute taking: mariangela, Orsan
- translations in French: Rami
People participating in the meeting introducing each other:
- Analuz, española en Túnez
- Carminda, Montreal-Quebec, Canada VIA22
- Daniel, Barcelona, Spain 15M
- Fausto, italian in Tunis, T’harrek movement.
- Jasper, the Netherlands, occupy
- Karina, Montreal-Quebec, Canada
- MRS, Sarh from UK, Worthing
- Nachoutebo, Aragona, Spain
- Netdruide, from France
- mariangela, politica internacional 15M, Madrid, Spain
- Occupier Kaylynn, Occupy Des Moines, Iowa, USA
- Olyaz, from Armenia involved in the forum
- Orsan, Turkish, lives in the Netherlands, Occupy Amsterdam
- Ounais, Tunisian activist, living in France
- Predrag, Zagreb,Croatia, local activist groups Citizens’ Action.
- Piran, Iranian living in Germany Berlin anticapitalist activities
- Rami, Tunis, T’harrek, WSF methodology
- Ternura, 15M Spain, international network of Occupy
- Umang Kumar, Boston, MA, USA – from Occupy Boston and Occupy local universities
- Pierre, : from France involved in the WSF participated in the last meeting in Tunis
- Vica, Occupy London
- Pirate 101: Occupy list
- Tutini: Occupy london
- John, Occupy London, Occupy Basel in Switzerland
- Jim, North East England, Occupy Mvt
- What’s happening in our assemblies about the forum and information from Tunis
- Our communication
- Name of the network organizing our participation in Tunis
- Next meetings – When?
1. What’s happening in our assemblies about the forum and information from Tunis
mariangela: politica internacional is informing all the assemblies about the forum and the work of our network Nous informons toutes les assemblées sur le forum et le travail de notre réseau
Rami: in Tunis there was an international meeting and there are some divisions. Many people see hierarchy in the organisation of the WSF and don’t want to keep working the way it is going right now,
International Council wants to have the indignados in the forum
There are several groups who dont want to stay in the organization of the WSF. These groups prefere to work with people who want to change the organizations. The “organizers” pretend that there are 15 organizations in the Steering Committee, but this is lie, they are only 5 people who run everything and want to conytrol everything
There is a fight right now. Some people say they could help us.
Ounais: we didnt get to the point of a real change. We have to organize activities ouside the forum, show that everyone can participate, the principle of the Indignados.
Jasper: about what happened yesterday in Tunis during the second anniversary of the death of Sidi Bouzid: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20760363
Mariangela: She agree that people are active in tunis and they want to see new movement coming to tunis. so we need to go to tunis.
Fausto: there are lots of conflicts in Tunisia after what happened and there are revolts everyweek. I am afraid that the WSF will be outside this conflicts as it happened in Kenya
Piran: there is a revolutionary situation in all area. We have to connect with this. The WSF from the beginning is a very important social event. there is always a struggle between old political culture and new political culture which is horizontal. The other culture is topdown. We couldnt leave these spaces in their hand. These spaces are ours. We have to interfere.
Fausto: yes but we in Tunis believe every day more and more that the people in constrol of the WSF belongs to the old culture too
Orsan: I know there are a problem in approching the organizers. I dont know if is possible to engage with this situation. We have just to do our activities in a positive way outside or inside. We could teach we could learn
Ounais: ask who is organizing the SF in Tunis and if the people know about the process
Rami: has been organized by old people from the Ben Ali era: Fathi Dbek, UGTT, who participated for 10 years in the WSF. The comunication is very bad, the work is very bad, and the people from the so called Forum for economical and social rights.
Dani: question do you mean we have to fight the block organizing??
Basstress: happy to hear from Tunis and to have this discussion. If we are hear we want horizontality, direct democracy. We are criticizing the process and we have to work for open space. Information: there are people proposing the dissolution of the international council
people agree that we dont want to see hioerarch appearing in WSf and we dont want to see that and i guess we believe in open spave and horizontal working. there are people aspecting a parallel space.
Fausto: Carminda and everybody, U can read this article by Gus massiah from the International Council http://www.ritimo.org/article4568.html (The Future of the International Council of World Social Forum)
Mariangela: let’s move on to our proposals and we know that we will do what we want and how we want.
Rami it is not about try to get control of everything, expresses frustration (?) after occupy and the revolution, this WSF is very important because lots of people are accepting to go beyond their principles agaisnt money, we have to be ourselves whatever happens, they want the image of Occupy, they don’t want “us” (the people) because they don’t understand what is it about yet. The problem is that they don’t care about the ppl, they just need the benefits of the chance of getting together. Lets all camp. I dont want to destroy the forum but we cannot stay with the odl left. It’s a space and has to change with no doubt.
If WSF doesnt change people is not having the right information. People from real movements in Tunis could be left outside the forum. And iit is important to have them there or go to them.
Marwen and Nori: I agree that we don’t have to loose our time fighting a structure like the forum that is maintaining the statuts quo, instead we are interested in a forum where:
Promote networking movements basic social and strengthening to become larger and stronger by involving the interplay between global culture and local culture resulting in self-management, horizontality, direct democracy, popular struggles networked.
- Participate in the self-determination of social movements
- Another civil socity is possible ….
- Exit the Jurrasic park mode
- Living alternatives to capitalism instead of reversible
- Relevant critical collaboration trio Capitalism-state-civil society and emphasize alternatives
- Encounters between people who have projects at the base and make a max benefit people
- Open outlook on what is possible and to imagine and address the crisis of the imagination and the imagination
- Engaging the most disadvantaged and can marginaliséées by globalization
- Focus on the aspect of the alternative concrete projects,
But very very important that grassrroot social mouvements from Tunisia, the event we imagine has to somehow serve the revolution process and fight capitalism
Orsan: we would like to see the real movements in Tunisia. we could contribute to change the WSF. lets move on to the other points.
Jasper: We will surely continue this conversation in the next meetings
Ounaies: the problem of Tunis is the system. The pressure of the economical and social sistem is very strong. We didnt get to a direct democracy as we were working for. Tunisia is asking for a good and real change and the international support is important.
Marwan: something has to be made. initiative of having a caravan. There were difficulties discussing this proposal with the commette. We speak about making a camp but it’s very important to know the objectives behind these activities: it’s really important to involve tunisian social movements from the base. Their presence is really important.
Before speaking about projects we need to see the faisability, it needs information, if you can go to tunisia before you should go. So we need to define the objective.
If the objective is to go on the way of the revolution it’s very important to understand that no of the groups that are revolutionnaries are involved in the organisation of the WSF & at best they will be just participants & at worst they won’t be there at all.
Orsan: Technical point about agenda, agreements about engagement & what we are going to do there.
Fausto: In my opinion iF PEOPLE LIKE US DON’t mobilize young people, there will be a very few young people at the WSF. If not there wont be young tunisian people in the forum as iT is prepared
2. Our communication
Mailing list: we confirm the use of this list: firstname.lastname@example.org
***please every body reading these minutes and interested in this project join in the above email list***
Jasper: Proposal to create another website from Jasper he can propose a good proposal for next time if there is people that want it too.
Dani: agree with proposal and suggested to use Open FSM site and we suggest we need admins to do that. he is happy not to be one of the admins.
Marwane: it can be good to engage with tunisian young tech comm people in tunis. if we use openFSM page this can demotivate tunisian paticipation to the initiative. my proposal is if tere is a consensus – if we want to have an independent and inclusive sapace we need to have same one online,
Mariangela: 2-3 people from this group meet with Marwane and work on such tools to be developed independantly. And it is urgent to have such tools and space to spread infornation.
Fausto: I tried to join in openFSM page but had peroblems, can anyone explain. (Pierre expl.)
Daniel: Lets build this group and go on this via that group.
Ounaies: there is the need to mobilise young people in horizontal open assembly
We consensuated to form a group to bring a proposal for the website in the next meeting
3. Name of the network organizing our participation in Tunis
Getting an indication what people think of the different proposals (-1 means: don’t like, +1 means: like)
- WSFkaramaFSM +1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1-1+1+1
- OccupyWSF +1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+-1-1
- WSFtaketomaFSM -1+1 +1-1-1+1-1-1+1+1-1-1
- TakeWSFtomaFSM +1-1+1-1-1-1+1-1-1-1-1
- globalassembliesWSFSM +1+1+1-1+1-1-1+1-1-1-1
- Glocalassemblies -1-1-1-1-+1-1+1-1
- TomaFSM -1+1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- GlobalSpringWSF -1 -1-1-1-1-1+1-1-1-1-1
- MoveFSMTunis, -1 -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- 2011move2FSM -1 -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- wsftunis -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- 2011M2WSF, -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- Newmov2WSF, -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
- Horizontal(streets)WSF -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
Discussion on which wording is better!
Carminda : better no tu use occupy mieux vaut ne pas utiliser occupy,
Nori: what do we want to do and how to do it ?
Fausto: Un autre FSM est possible/An other WSF is possible!
Marwen: the name depends on the objectives. If it’s just indignados & occupy who do that taking the name makes sense, if it’s more extended, not necessary. Second point: we’re not clear about WSF so maybe takin back this name isn’t good. third point: we’ll grow up a lot, we have time to find a name with more people (end january as eg) +1
Ounaies: In Tunisia we say “Karama” (arabic) which means Indignados. Occupy but occupying what?
Marwen: WSF was decided by foreign peoples + lead comity isn’t representative & could be seen as colonizing the civil society space. Tunisian people may feel that this WSF is colonizing them if they dont take part in the organisation or if they dont participate. So if the name and the format of the event is decided by people in the north, the Tunisians might not be involved in this process
Decision about the name: we put -1 and +1 next to the names in order to delete the ones we dont like and keep the others for further discussion. People could add in the pad before next meeting
4. Next meeting – when?
There is a proposal for 3rd january. It has been decided it will be the 3rd January same space same time
There is a proposal to discuss the remaining points in the next meetings. Consensus.
This points go to next meetings:
- Can we come to an agreement on a very short statement indicating the purpose of our initiative (maybe not now, but within the next couple of weeks?) and what would be the main elements of such a statement?
- Activities in Tunis: assemblies, caravan, migrants march, assemblies, open spaces, experience exchange workshop on citizen media
- Extended forum and local participation from outside Tunis
- Translation: how to solve the problem
- How to involve other people, groups, movements?
- Financial aspect about activies & travelling and other infrastructures
Orsan: Call from ETUC European Trade Union Confederation for day of action on the 13th or 14th of March – Alter Summit is an initiative or unions, NGOs and networks agrees with joining in that day and call for mobilisation and engage with other grroups and movement. There were meetingd on the 13th, 14th and 15th in Brussles to discuss this and we heard that ETUC European Trade Unions calls for an centrlised aciton in Brussels and European day of action, just before the Summit. This happens first time in ETUC history [will add links and more info]
Fausto: alter summit on 7-8 June in Greece. we have to start thinking about a Tunisian participation
Daniel: There was a meeting to start preparing the Citizens Pact, in Brussels, a process in the whole Europe, social movements lead the process, it is open and it could be very productive http://www.euroalter.com/ppp/events/3956/
Mariangela: antiwar meeting 15th december. Next meeting on 20th January (will send the link)
Marwen: inviting people to go to Tunis before the forum. We need to see each other
Kaylynn: there is not enough money for people in need. There will be a big demo next week.
Carmida: via22 assembly has an open space and invites people updates from VIA22 : http://us6.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b16b840c1daf5c23507a9b37e&id=2776de1505&e=0c48f45e4c
Messages saying good bye to everybody