Minutes 7 December 2012

In our 2nd online meetings on Occupy and the WSF we started with some updates from Tunisia: about the current poltical situation and about the WSF process. We also discussed proposals for activities during the WSF, including a series of assemblies. A complete summary of all the proposals so far can be found at the end of the minutes.

2nd Mumble Meeting: Open Space about Occupy & WSF

7 December 2012 at 19.00 pm GMT

Minutes and Agenda of the last meeting: 



  1. Introducing and welcome
  2. Information point of the situation in Tunisia and in the WSF process
  3. Targets to 2013: World Social Forum 2013 do we want to do something and how?
  4. How we should organize the assemblies in Tunis? how many? when? what time? What about contents and methodology?
  5. Tools to use: how do we communicate from now on, after this meeting?
  6. Next meeting in Mumble
  7. Announcements

1. Introducing and welcome

  • Carminda from Quebec VIA22
  • Dani Seco from 15M Barcelona
  • Camilla from Occupy Oslo
  • Jasper from local group in Nijmegen
  • John from Occupy London and Basel
  • Mariangela from Politica internacional 15m Madrid
  • Orsan from Occupy Amsterdam and Agora99 and…
  • Pierre from France    for contact with the extension team – my personal contact is on the list
  • Piran in Berlin
  • Rami in “Occupy Tunisia”

We define the agenda.

2. Information point of the situation in Tunisia and in the WSF process

Rami: There are 3 important points:

1. The political situation in Tunisia

Is misunderstood a lot. It’s difficult to explain in short time  but for more than 30 years we couldnt talk about politics. Before the 14J I mean. We have access to the media.

We are a very small country. People know each other. 14 January we began. Social contxt wanted to revolt. The power was devided. US lost faith in Ben Ali. Good pupil of IMF and WB. Corrupt family the rich also turn against him. We wanted to make new constitution

We didnt have real opposition. We didnt have time to organise ourselves. So Saudi support the Islamist groups with money. So islamist get the majority. We have a long term perspective to create a new constitution. We are just beginning . Good part of left opposition are still in the old mechanismold leader. They dont understand the spirit of our century. I cant speak for the movement on TV. Revolt in Syria. People lost their view. Right now people are revolting in different areas in Tunisia, not in Tunis. WSF Committe in  Tunisia says we are the revolution –  this is NOT true. Not easy there is a lot of work to do

We activst want to work with Occupy movements. We are all the same. Big forces in Tunisia are the UGTT (General Workers Union)- they are v. strong in the revolt. They made revolution inside it

Unions r v. strong in tunisia. There is right now an event, a union anniversary of the death this man they demonstrate and the islamist militia attack UGTT and now there is general strike (Note afterwards: finally, the Union renounced to the general strike, foreseen for Dec. 13). Its good there is a fight between unions and islamist governement. There is not one group now. Context is here and the people r ready for it because we didint have the time before. If u have any questions I have all the contacts

2. About the WSF

Organization of WSF is not good at all. You see the same people at the head of it for 10 years. They are not all bad people. Lot of good folks too but there is hierarchy. It is not horizontal process. They are also from the Ben ali era. They are the ones that get to the top

but there are also some new people : the unemployed graduates have made their own orgnisation. A lot of people left the WSF commette. They ask us to take the money. They gave us part of money to do something on our side. We can do it our way. Each time this happens it doesnt change. Each time same happens again.You cant change it from  inside

We try make it right but we have not a lot of time. The coalition is not ready at all. There is a lot of fight. The WSF would have happen in Egypt. WSF want success in Tunisia. Lot of people are not aware there is WSF in Tunisa. We do everything to make it a success. WSF will be in the university campus. We are late in the work

3. Activism in Tunisia

People have the power in the hand. There is governor in the region. A lot of people manage to take out the governor in the country. It’s shame the WSF is not there in these places.

They make the people’s assembly in the radical centre of tunisia. They have civil disobedience. They have the good spirit. They be all OK to help you. I could give you all the direct contacts. We r not exactly a network. But we all know each other and we all friends

Q. Are there groups who are trying to organizing something different? How we could connect?

R: There is the proposal about working on horizontal methodology, civil desobedience, alternative practising and organize spaces all togethe. Usually we do group activities that are the same. Lets put all our activity. We hope that tunisia action will be for free. Normally you have to pay for your activity. We dont want to pay for it. So that we can save your money to come to tunis.

Q. Are there groups ready to work with us?

R: Political situation still not stable. But it is still possible to do assembly outside the wsf and you will find people to do it with you. Police will not want to scare foreign activists. It will be possible to have a camp and assemblies in Tunis

Pi. Informing about the extended Forum and invited to mobilize. The concept is to involve people who dont go to Tunis and develop initiatives locally. It will be Activities in the forum, in the website you can also tick that the activity is linked with people ouside the forum but also activities outside Tunis (there are 15 already of them)

The people in Tunis will help the people who are not there to connect with the forum

Collective communication in the movement. It will be a good input There are people in the same Tunisia not in Tunis who are organizing these kind of meetings It’s not only an internet thing. There are also local meeting who will have speakers in the WSF

This could be done in each country, more info: http://openfsm.net/projects/tunex/project-home

R: I organized the 1st meeting of Dusturna . It means in Arabic Our Constitution

There was a fight in this organisation. We wanted to do a counter power. But we lost it because some people forced the lead to go for the election. Intern organisation is not horizontal anymore, there is leadership (especially one speak in the name of all the others: jawar ben mbarek) but they are in the participative spirit : writing alternatives togethers. But we have good friends in it we work with

D: proposal not do meet on friday evening, do it in week days.

3. Targets to 2013: World Social Forum 2013 do we want to do something and how?

Ja: It looks like we have a lot of proposals on the table. There are ideas about doing things on the streets. VIA 22 also wants to do things. There are the three assemblies registered to te official program of the WSF.

D: at least we decided to do something. It is also clear it needs to be horizontal, we need to allow more time than for florence.. it was short so we may do something longer may be all day.. what others think?

M: It would be good to start from all the proposals. Having a  camp is important to have more time together,  leaving the camp and connecting with other places in Tunisiais good as well. Three assemblies in three diff. days is also good idea. We can talk about the contents later, but these are good things to do outside the forum.

Jo: What I like to do is a Caravan is a kind of tour of caravan around central Tunis where radical movements are based, the ones R. was talking about.

B: Shall we start presenting the initiatives are already made?

4. How we should organize the assemblies in Tunis? How many? When? What time? What about contents and methodology? 

D: What I proposed is a result of private conversation as a starting point based on the experience of Firenze. Florence can be a starting point the content was more general. A group “Inclusion in Forums Through Assembleary Processes” has been registered. Here is the group  http://www.fsm2013.org/organisation_info/2472 and there the 3 activities/assemblies announced can be accessed.  The contents of these registered assemblies could be changed:

Assembly 1: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1227

“what future do you want to build?” – “how are we going to work to build it?” – “what experience should we learn from for that?” Compile the conclussions of each group.

Assembly 2: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1229

The questions would be focused on some transversal topics, not within any particular thematic axis of the WSF. For instance, dividing in at least 5 groups with the following debates: group1: – “what can be improved in this WSF? – how can we improve the next WSF?” group2: – “how can my fight link with fights like yours? – who does what you do in my area? – what resources can we share?” group3: – “how can we mix the local and global levels of our fights? – how are we going to extend the process of WSF locally?” group4: – “do we want to support any proposal for where, when and how to have the next meeting / WSF / calendar date? shall we take a message/process like these assemblies to any other forum?” group5: – “what problems of organization do we have as movements? how do we deal with them?” Also, ask all the groups to provide topics for discussion for the third assembly. Compile the conclussions of each group.

Assembly 3: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1232

This activity would be third of three in three different days. Being the third one, the methodology would be defined on a ongoing process during the other two events.

There is a problem with translation in the assemblies and we have to concentrate on it.

C: The event proposed is from a group (New Compass) in Oslo on how we can get radical democratic changes. I’m a part of Occupy Oslo, but also participate in this group. Information about the event proposed from New Compass http://new-compass.net/news/new-compass-event-world-social-forum

We should ensure that we have enough time in the assemblies to discuss the issues thoroughly. There must be enough time for everyone to speak and for the discussion to go deep. 

M: presents aproposal of contents for the 3 assemblies (already registered and with contents to be changed) from working group politica internacional 15M, Madrid:

  1. First assembly: Concrete expieriences and alternatives built in different spaces and assemblies in 15M/Occupy/Social horizontal and assembleary movements
  2. Second assembly: retaking commons (earth, water, services, …..) how movements could impose the selfmanagment of resourses respecting nature an basic needs?
  3. Third assembly: strategies of impowerment of social struggles facinh oppression and repression of the system

VIA22:  is proposing a space . Dont know if inside or outside the WSF. The idea is to have a creative open space (shaped by participants and open to other people through the internet) to encourage reflexion on how we (people active in the different social mouvements around the world) can collaborate beyond the WSF. The WSF is an important moment, but for us, what is more important is what will happen after. How we can carry on working together internationally in different social movements. We will try to improve different kind of expression and stimulate artistic expression too.

Debate on the proposals: 

Jo: I want to talk about prisinors solidairty, in the UK we have a lot of issues re the respression, like respression on prisoners. … I think it is a big issue globally.

D: to reply to the proposal of politica internacional madrid Those can be some of the topics in the assemblies.. but these topic can be not interesting for others. for sure we can give space but not strict the all assembly with one topic…

M I dont think talking about the commons is a marginal thing.. WE all are in this world and prople in the cities, or indigneous people all are related with “commons”. The point is how we could defend or reclaim the management of our lives in our communities is an important issue.

Pir:  we have to pay attention to interrelate different people together, what makes this easy is to put topics like: what are our problems? We can aprooach the problems, and how to solve them. We are going to Tunis, or larger arabic countries, in a revolutionary process, with concrete problems. If we want to exchange there must be a space for exchange.

Instead of concretizing now the contents, let it be defined after or during the exchange. The space we creaye must be flexible and give space to exchange.

Ja: I agree with Piran..that we should keep the definition as open as possible for next couple of months, so people can join on the way… There are many other movements that we have to try to get in touch with and invite them to join the process.. There is a good potential so what ever we do keep it open. It is also good idea to do something outside the forum, creative and colloborative workshops, skill sharing, very practical, for example livestreaming and mumble workshops. It can be a learning process and give chance to do more connections.

O: agrees with P

B: talking aobut her contact in Montreal and discussiion with activists. They were promoting an autonoumous initiative and some other poeple were coordinating a camp, like a parallel forum that would try to think  actively on tools and methodologies, communications and colloborations during the WSF.

J: propose to move on to practicalities like making our communication channels clear

M: proposal: go back to our assemblies with all the proposals made in this pad and meet in a week in order to carry on with the discussion

O: proposes a facilitating group for the meetings

5. Tools to use: how do we communicate from now on, after this meeting?

Which mailing list are we going to use? which other tools?

These are the lists we used till now:

  • occupy-and-wsf-discussion@lists.openfsm.net
  • transcollab@lists.so36.net
  • squares@lists.takethesquare.net
  • occupy15m-firenze@lists.openfsm.net
  • 2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion@lists.openfsm.net

A new list has been proposed: There are different proposals on the name of the list: moveFSMTunis, 2011move2FSM, wsftunis, 2011move2FSM, 15M – 2011M, 2011M2WSF, Newmov2WSF,

We consensuate to use the one which already exists: 2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion@lists.openfsm.net

You can subscribe here: http://openfsm.net/projects/2011movements-fsm-wsf/lists/2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion

We need to inform all the people in the previous list that this is the list we are gonna use and how they caan join

6. Next meeting in Mumble

Next meeting: tuesday the 18th 2012 at  7 pm GMT , Mumble Meeting / Open Space  Find your local time here:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html

(a group of people volunteer to prepare the call for the next meeting)

7. Announcements

M: Information about Global ‘across the wall’ anti-war / self -determination for all people’s on-line meeting. A meeting to bring together people from all over the world (Palestine, Israel, Syria, Iran, …..) to co-ordinate the possibility of a grassroots transnational network to bring wars and occupations to an end, inform about actions and campaigns in different countries, look for alternatives.

15 Dec 2012 7pm CET time (Central Europe) 6pm GMT (UK,….) 8pm IST (Palestine,…..)

in Mumble, Occupytalk, channel: OPEN SPACE


Summary and open proposals from the meeting to be discussed in our assemblies/groups and in the next meeting of 18th of december: 

1. A caravan around tunis during the forum to see the most radical assemblies

2. A camp in Tunis managed by horizontal movements (15M, occupy, via22, …….)

3. Three assemblies (they have been registered but the contents are to be decided)

Assembly 1: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1227

Assembly 2: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1229

Assembly 3: http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/1232

Proposal politica internacional 15M, Madrid:

First assembly: Concrete expieriences and alternatives built in different spaces and assemblies in 15M/Occupy/Social horizontal and assembleary movements

Second assembly: retaking commons (earth, water, services, …..)

Third assembly: strategies of empowerment of social struggles facing oppression and repression of the system

4. Name of the camp/activities: moveFSMTunis, 2011move2FSM, wsftunis, 2011move2FSM, 15M – 2011M, 2011M2WSF, Newmov2WSF,

5. Local horizontal activities all over the world connected with activities in the extended forum

6. Confirming the mailing list we are using 2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion@lists.openfsm.net

You can subscribe here: http://openfsm.net/projects/2011movements-fsm-wsf/lists/2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion

7. Translation issue in the forum:  (may be translator brigades can help)

should we try to innovate an online simultaneous interpretation system for the future meetings (the idea is at an experimental level: interpreters – via babels- join in the mumble meeting and mute their mics so they can hear  and interpret via skype. So they establish conference call simultaneously with participants speaking relevant language.

8. How we involve the assemblies all over the world in the preparing for Tunis process?

  • How do we make sure that we keep our initiative open to new proposals during the coming months?
  • How do we make sure there will be always room for constructive criticism, for example on how to relate to other movements, NGOs, unions, etc?
  • Can we come to an agreement on a very short statement indicating the purpose of our initiative (maybe not now, but within the next couple of weeks?) and what would be the main elements of such a statement?

9. How we could promote local participation for people who cannot travel to Tunis?

Extended forum is a modality explained here http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/113  –

Local groups not going to Tunis can announce local activities and also tele-encounter activities , with tunis groups or with other local groups.  Also they can “tele- participate” in activities held in tunis (inasmuch those activities are enlarged on internet by their organizers)

First local activities announced are seen here :http://www.fsm2013.org/fr/node/1432  the concept of combined participation is explained here ; http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/456

A collaborative scheme for supporting extended participation is being prepared here : http://openfsm.net/projects/tunex-en ( translation in progress from :http://openfsm.net/projects/tunex-fr

10. How will we reach out and build links with more Tunisian local activists in order to start building up towards WSF as well as organising logistical and other matters in Tunis?

11. Our meeting in Mumbles (weekly?what day?change o keep one fixed day)

12. Proposal: simple blog with calls for meetings/minutes/relevant articles/practical info/reporting?

Next meeting: tuesday the 18th 2012 at  7 pm GMT , Mumble Meeting / Open Space  Find your local time here: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html


Summary of the meeting in Spanish:

Resumen de cita 7 diciembre y discurso en asambleas.

1.  Una caravana llegará a Túnez y revolverá la ciudad para visitar las asambleas radicales.

2.  Un campo mantenido por miembros de movimientos horizontales 15M, Via22 y Ocupa y otros.

3.  Las asambleas se han divido en 3 grupos: experiencias actuales y espacios alternativos, tópicos de la tierra y agua y servicio, y mejorar condición de gente y combatir opresión.

Actividades adentro y afuera de Túnez serán centradas en estos tópicos.  Traducción en varios idiomas será incluida.  Cuestiones discutidas fueron incluir participación en las asambleas, incluir otras organizaciones y una declaración de intención.  Actividades durante el evento van a mejorar participación local.  Los tópicos de las citas serán traducidos antes de cada cita, también la estructura de la cita y como participar.  Luego fue una discusión de situaciones que aparecen cuando grupos diferentes tratan de juntarse y los problemas que existen en Túnez capital y otras partes de Túnez país.

Hay una mailing list para continuar la discusión y planear citas futuras y el evento en Túnez.

La próxima cita es el 3 enero en Mumble Open Space 19:00 GMT.

Source: http://titanpad.com/agora99firezneWSF2

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